TELL US: Should Father-Daughter Dances Be Banned?
State law in Rhode Island bans Father-Daughter dances, such as the ones held at schools and community center in many towns. Let us know if you agree with the ban or not.
Father-daughter dances are a tradition at many schools, community centers and social halls in towns all across Massachusetts.
But down in Cranston, R.I., school officials there say they have banned Father-Daughter dances after a complaint from one mother, according to various reports on Cranston Patch.
The ban was part of a wider ban put in place this fall by Cranston school Superintendent Judith Lundsten, according to Cranston Patch reporting. The move came after Lundsten received a letter from the American Civil Liberties Union complaining that a single mother had not been allowed to attend a Father-Daughter dance with her daughter.
Apparently the federal Title IX legislation that bans gender description actually has an exemption for activities such as Father-Daughter dances. But Rhode Island law does not honor that exemption, Cranston Patch reported.
Does the ACLU have a point? Should Father-Daughter dances be banned? Should single mothers be allowed to attend with their daughter?
Let us know in the comments.
NaemhOisin
5:00 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
The ACLU are bullies. They go after schools and districts with their lawsuits and know that the districts do not have the funds to fight the lawsuit so they have no choice but to submit. I do not understand the mentality that all must suffer because of one. Doesn't this child have an uncle or grandfather or an adult male in her life that could have taken her to the dance? How sad that apparently she does not and her mother has done nothing to improve that part of this little girl's life. This is just a by-product of the feminist mantra that men are not important in the lives of children. This was a teachable moment for this mother and she reneged. How will her daughter have the coping skills needed to accept the challenges that life throws on a daily basis. By running to the aclu? Not realistic. Personally, I feel that such dances should be held in private settings anyway. I just think this was handled badly, and unfairly for the hundreds of girls who look forward to the event.
gene
8:02 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
I don't agree with the ACLU on a lot of things, but they are hardly bullies. They go after school districts because school districts have a perverse way of looking at their role in society. If a child misbehaves on the weekend and off campus why should the school be allowed to discipline the student? Yet they try
Cool Fusion
4:59 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
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Ken
4:50 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
They should ban Cranston school Superintendent Judith Lundsten from her job!
Ken
5:03 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
The ACLU has no point. Father daughter dance should not be banned. Single mothers should not be allowed to attend with daughter. I am sure the mother can find an uncle, grandfather, godfather or friend. This lady is a trouble maker.
Ken
5:08 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
The mother probably doesent know who the father is.
Wyatt Worm
6:16 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
That all must suffer because of one is one question, why any would have to is another. If given the choice between letting the single mom attend, or losing the dance entirely it seems absurd that the group choice was to ban the dance entirely. That the school lacks funds for defense does not mean their position is a moral position. I don't know that one could expect the ACLU to ignore its charter in such cases any more than it would when facing an opponent with much deeper pockets than they have. Which happens. Often.
Saber Walsh
6:33 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
This is where we are today: government that just can't seem to wait before jumping in to ruin almost anything that looks "normal."
I was once told that there are no more dangerous critters to encounter than the employee that is incompetent and knows it, but doesn't want anybody else to know it, and organizations that were once large and powerful but have lost their cause. The ACLU is now part of the latter: if the only tool you've ever known is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail.
Wyatt Worm
10:07 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
The ACLU is not a government agency.
gene
12:20 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
The ACLU is more relevant now than ever. With the Patriot Act and other encroachments on our civil liberties we need them to be looking out for us. I don't always agree with them but I am glad they are there.
Melissa Schools
7:10 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Great comments! I don't think the school district should be faulted. Perhaps the school should have just let that mom attend the dance, but seriously- how sad and juvenile is it that the mother would rather make a big stink and cast a pall over a happy, father-daughter bonding experience for an entire school?
Geez! Lack of dads' involvement in their kids' lives is a contributing factor to single motherhood. I'm sick and tired of adults stamping their feet and having "It's not faaaaiiiirrrr!" moments. This woman clearly has struggles, but does she have to be so myopic as to think she's the only one or hers are the most important? It's not as if going to the dang dance would have changed her other sorry circumstances. I wonder how the other single mothers weighed in on this one.
Wyatt Worm
10:12 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
I don't know that it is a 'sorry circumstance' to be a single parent by necessity.
Its actually pretty common in my experience and it does not require a bad outcome or bad experience for either the parent or the children.
What other option does she have apart from taking her daughter to the mother son dance? I think it was a reasonable request, it picked no-one's pocket nor did it break their leg. The ACLU should never have had to be involved. This was a self-inflicted wound by the school, the district and the parents involved.
Melissa Schools
1:43 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Wyatt: By "other sorry circumstances," I meant whatever circumstances I don't know about that would make her the kind of person who needs to make a stink about a father-daughter dance. Should the parents without daughters complain, too? We could come up with a list of all different kinds of family configurations and give each one their own dance, but then, that would be pretty lame, wouldn't it?
Jessica Harris
7:23 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
As single mother myself, I think it is sad that this mother would rather have the event cancelled and ruin the experience for everyone else, rather than use it as a teachable moment for her own child. Our children need to learn that indeed, life isn't fair, and the world isn't going to change or bend to make you happy. Everyone does NOT always deserve a trophy!
I myself have attended 3 father/daughter dances with my daughter, and it was not an issue. She wanted to attend with her friends, and although she does have many male family members and friends who would have attended with her, she wanted me there, because I am both mom and "dad" to her. We had a great time at all three dances, without any issues.
Wyatt Worm
10:14 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
I think she would have preferred just to go to the dance and had a good time with/for her daughter.
Amy OConnor
7:46 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
I was that girl that walked into a father daughter dance with my mother many years ago. I burst into tears and ran out. It stays with me even today.
I would NEVER try to stop others from enjoying what should be a beautiful time. My loss was just that, my loss.
Re naem oisins comment above, I take issue that this is some part of a feminist agenda. As a feminist from a long line of feminists, the mantra isn't that men aren't important, but that women are just as important. a feminist wouldn't have tried to stop the dance, But would have taught her daughter to hold her head high and move forward. Other than that comment, we're in agreement.
Mark Chulsky
1:46 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Thank you, Amy, for your comment. The most thoughtful in this batch.
mpf
8:49 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
The blame goes to the Cranston RI school administration, for not allowing the child to attend the dance. How silly is this! How silly where they. Much ado...
(sorry, Amy, that you had that loss)
The Idiot
9:14 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
These dances should definitely be banned. It just makes good sense, right? We should always punish other people when one person doesn't get their way. Who cares about the needs of many when we can satisfy the "one," especially if that "one" is me.
Wyatt Worm
10:17 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
I don't know that the issue is not that this person or that person 'gets their way', as much as it is that we have a common standard of behavior (or ought to) employed to resolve such issues.
Bryan McGonigle2
10:01 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Private schools don't have these types of problems.
Sometime after we decided that everyone is entitled to a free education, we also decided that the government needs to run one size fits all schools.
Wyatt Worm
10:25 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Private schools indeed do have problems with discrimination whether sectarian or non-sectarian and dependent on if they take federal funds.
It is true that privately funded schools may discriminate on gender lines, but not on racial lines.
Diana
10:24 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Wow! Father Daughter dances should not be banned. They should allow any "father-figure" to attend.
Wyatt Worm
10:29 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Except, maybe not George Michael... ;-)
Jessie Paiva
10:40 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Sometimes I forget how deeply ingrained gender roles are in our society. How sad that is for everyone because of the stress it puts on people. This string of comments brought that back to light for me. Some commenters I agree with, others I don't. However, this mother did not set out to stop all Father-Daughter dances, and it's not about the ACLU's practices. It was the school department who cancelled the dances rather than comply with federal law. What is the harm in allowing the mother attend the dance with her daughter? What some have suggested is the child bring any "man" to the dance rather than her primary caregiver. Does that make any sense? To deny entry to a person based on their physiological sexual organs?
John Devlin
12:46 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
"It was the school department who cancelled the dances rather than comply with federal law." No. The federal law specifically approves of Father-Daughter dances in publically-funded school systems. The ACLU's suit against the city of Cranston was antithetical to the letter of the law, but they won their point regardless because of the mere threat of a lawsuit. I do not know the reason why Cranston gave up before the fight began, but knowing what little I do about that city I find it very easy to believe they cannot afford to defend against any legal action, much less a trivial case that has no bearing on the educational charter of the school system.
Bryan McGonigle2
11:32 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Getting back to the private school vs government school point.
Private schools need to please their "customers". If you don't like some aspect of the school, you talk to the principal or the guidance counselor or whoever. If you're still not satisfied, you're take your business elsewhere. Just like restaurant customers - you are free to return or not depending on how the restaurant serves your particular needs.
In the government schools, you aren't always the customer - sometimes your a prisoner. You have no choices. You are not free to choose.
I'm remember the two people in Andover who ate every dinner at Friendly's and bemoaned its closing - an unlikely choice in my view but they obviously loved going there. Imagine if the government decided to give everyone free meals and then decided to run restaurants (i.e. just like it does with education). We'd have one size fits all restaurants (let's call them public cafeterias). If you didn't like the public cafeterias, you could go to a more expensive private restaurant or live with the cafeteria food. (I can imagine someone suing the public cafeteria for the lack of healthy dessert options or for serving meat on Friday in Lent). I think most of us would be worse off in such a situation including those that like the downtown Andover Friendly's.
Wyatt Worm
11:59 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Whereas you make a fun, compelling argument against the federal government running Friendly's, the analogy to the matter at hand seems inapt.
In a public school, you are neither customer nor prisoner, you are a citizen with the associated entitlement to public education, and the responsibility either publicly or privately pursued, to pursue that education to the point of becoming a responsible citizen.
You are absolutely free to choose not to go to a public school.
Imagine if the government decided to give everyone an education! Wait -- they did already:
"The objects of this primary eduction determine its character and limits... To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens, being then the objects of education in the primary schools, whether privet or public, in them should be taught reading, writing and numerical arithmetic, the elements of mensuration...and the outlines of geography and history." - Thomas Jefferson
Bryan McGonigle2
12:23 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
According to Jefferson, we wouldn't have the dance or the basketball team.
Glad Dad
12:05 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
On the bright side, it saves the daughters all the embarrassment of seeing their fathers dance in public.
John Devlin
12:53 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
And how many girls are on the Cranston High School varsity football squad? Have any ever tried out for the team? Does the school have a varsity football program for girls?
Wyatt Worm
4:56 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Mike - I agree that Jefferson was more interested in public schools for education of the citizenry vs public schools for sports/social events.
Wyatt Worm
5:05 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Melissa- Point taken on the sorry circumstance piece. I get where you are coming from better now, but I guess to me, its pretty obvious what the circumstances are. She feels discriminated against based on gender. I am not sure anyone would feel differently in the abstract even if they cannot identify with the particular circumstances in this instance.
The parents without daughters could complain, but I am not sure it would be much of a case. To what end?
You could try the high energy low output strategy of designing different dances that segregate along family circumstances and gender, or you could try the much more low energy high output solution of letting this woman come to the dance with her daughter!
I don't see much of a slippery slope argument here.
Wyatt Worm
5:59 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
John Devlin - Was just told anecdotally that the board blew their lawsuit budget losing a fight to keep a christian banner up in the school and had nothing left for this one. Interesting if true.
Melissa Schools
6:21 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Well, Wyatt, I did say and do agree that they should have just let her go- but that still doesn't entitle her to bellyache about it. I'd agree more with the discrimination argument if this were 20 or even 10 years ago, but single parents are hardly a rare species these days. The article didn't say that a disenfranchised _group_ of single mothers protested and were brushed off. We're talking about one mom who felt left out.
As for the "Christian banner," I, too, would like to know the circumstances, but I'll wager that it was a case of another individual who set out to change circumstances to his/her liking. Maybe the banner was something Christmasy that dared allude to Jesus rather than Santa or presents or snowmen. Quelle horreur!
Melissa Schools
6:28 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
Okay, I was wrong about the banner topic. Here's a link: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fed-judge-sides-with-teen-atheist-orders-public-school-to-remove-prayer-mural/
Still, looks like one fervent atheist just couldn't bear the existence of that prayer in her school. Again, I feel like saying the school should have known better, but...
Wyatt Worm
7:22 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
I don't think that anyone has an issue with prayer in school, so long as it is not a public school which is the extension of the secular republic within which we all live. By definition, such a republic must remain neutral on religion.
It should not require an atheist teenager to remind the school of their stewardship of this position, it should be easily recognizable and responsibly avoided as an offense by any well informed citizen.
john
7:16 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
I would like to see an effort to stop kids from walking around school with their butts hanging out. Banning a father daughter dance is ridiculous.
Wyatt Worm
7:18 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
I agree that the rejection from the dance does not entitle her to speech. We are however, all entitled to bellyache by the constitution. One does not need to be a member of a collective to be discriminated against anymore than one needs to be a member of a collective to reject discrimination.
Kelley Fuller
9:34 pm on Friday, September 21, 2012
One of my most cherished memories were the annual father-daughter dinners I attended with my dad. It was "our" time together with no else in the family, and being with the other dads and girls was great. It is one of the things I reflect on when I remember him in life. I am saddened that we have come to the point at which such events have become so legally dissected that they are eliminated out of fear of stepping on someone's toes, even if it's one person - or even a hypothetical person - who can't bear the possibility of personal disappointment. I am sad for daughters who will never have some of the positive experiences I had because we must avoid any missteps that will cause someone's feelings to be hurt. My guess is that mother is completely unaware and apparently uncaring of what she has extinguished for others. Having had my 3 years of law school, I know the legal reasoning behind the ruling; the logic is not lost on me. I know that a civilization cannot exist without laws; but it also cannot exist for long without grace, true compassion for one another, and plain common sense. It will literally rule itself out of existence. Stories like this make me sad for other traditions that will go by the wayside next.
Wyatt Worm
4:43 am on Saturday, September 22, 2012
Kelly - The appeal to tradition, that is to say that something is true because we have always held it to be true, in the absence of other evidence is a logical fallacy. The notion that the infringement of rights has occurred before and was left unrecognized is not the same as saying those rights were never infringed or that it was right to do so. Further, the emotional value you describe related to your experience does not seem at all to require gender bias. I am not sure how a mother bringing her daughter to such a dance threatens such an experience. I similarly struggle with how one feels sad for daughters who miss the dance via a ban vs daughters who miss the dance via gender bias. Is not the harm exactly the same on either side?
To be clear, the mother did not ban the dance. She clearly is highly motivated to have the dances continue. It was others who decided that it was a superior moral position to end dances rather than relax gender bias or their antipathy for single mothers.
Wyatt Worm
5:42 am on Saturday, September 22, 2012
Kelly - Not to be insensitive to your memories, I am also interested in your ideas on why such dances that inarguably are cherished are required to end by virtue of the notion that they may not be appropriate in a publicly funded forum? Is there not a dimension of this where we say, private voluntary associations are protected, even when they discriminate in ways that are not publicly supportable? Just a follow-on thought that occurred to me after the first reply.
Stephen Christian
7:37 am on Saturday, September 22, 2012
maybe we should ban teachers from using red ink when correcting papers so that nobody knows that our child got something wrong and that our child's self esteem is still intact.
Wyatt Worm
7:41 am on Saturday, September 22, 2012
If they are discriminating along gender lines while doing so, then yes that should be banned.
I don't know that it is true that receiving a correction on an assignment by way of an education has been positively linked to low self-esteem. Please post a reference so that I may educate myself. It is an interesting topic.
Lisa Rose
1:47 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
I find it sad that this mom couldn't think of one male role model in her daughter's life who could accompany her. What a great opportunity to teach about "the family we choose"...but then again, people like this mom just don't get the big picture.
Ken
4:45 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
Society is sick.
tom
5:25 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
wwow what a sick society we live in . This woman as well as the state is brain dead. What the hell are we becoming.
Michael Quinlan
8:54 am on Monday, September 24, 2012
We're becoming Democrats.